Make the most of your board experience: Guests: Annie Tayyab and Michael Binetti

At some point in their career,  many lawyers and other professionals consider serving on a board of directors as part of their professional development. And when they do, they usually come face-to-face with inevitable questions, like these ones:

- What type of board is right for me? 
- How can I best contribute? 
- What are some proven ways to handle conflict? 

So, In this episode of Get in the Driver's Seat, we're pulling back the curtain on what it really means to join a board and how to make the most of that experience, for yourself, your colleagues and the organization itself. While this discussion is enlightening about the journey itself (and it is), it ultimately brings us to the key to it all, which is becoming a better leader.

To learn more about Michael, please go to https://www.agmlawyers.com/

To learn more about Annie, please go to https://www.torkin.com/

You're listening to Get in the Driver’s Seat! We’re telling stories about leadership moments in small to mid-sized professional practices. I’m your host, Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach for lawyers, architects, consultants and other professionals at Bekhor Management.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. This is Get in the driver's seat. We're telling stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor. Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. We're doing something different today. I have two guests. I'm excited to introduce Annie Tayyab and Michael Binetti. Michael Benetti is the Managing Partner of Affleck Greene McMurtry LLP  and has over 15 years of experience in arguing both trials and appeals. Michael was previously the Chair of the Marketing Practices Committee of the Canadian Bar Association Competition Law Section. He is currently the Director of the Toronto Lawyers Association and Former Director of the Canadian Italian Business and Professional Association. Annie Tayyab is a Litigator at Torkin Manes LLP. She has held numerous leadership positions in the legal profession. And she is currently the President of the South Asian Bar Association of Toronto. She has previously served on the Advocate Society Young Advocate Standing Committee, the Ontario Class Actions Bench Bar Liaison Committee, and the Ontario Bar Association’s Women Lawyers’ Forum. Welcome. So the two of you have known each other for many years, and I'd love to have you each tell us something interesting about the other.

Michael, do you want to go first?

Oh, I was gonna ask you to go first. Yeah, so Annie and I used to work together and we've kept in touch. And I've been following her career, which has just, you know, skyrocketed, so I'm very happy to have known her before she has gotten so famous with the things that she's been doing but a good story having worked together and you know, you chat in the hallway was I only learned this very recently that Annie got herself into an electronic dance music festival. So and Annie will say if you know me, that would be the last thing you would think that she would go. But if you hear it from Annie, I think she absolutely loved going to that festival.

Yeah, it was a really fun festival. And absolutely one of the last things anyone would think that I would do, for sure. Um, so my sort of fun fact about Michael, Michael and I worked together. When I was about to move house and in that process, I was looking for someone or looking for a dishwasher. And so for me, Michael is the guy who knows a guy. He referred me to someone who sold me my dishwasher. I love my dishwasher. It's truly one of the best appliances that we have in our house. And Michael told me this at the time, and I think it's absolutely true. If you know Michael, don't make any big purchases without talking to Michael like I 10 out of 10 endorse that statement.

You may be sorry, Michael, for all these endorsements.

Don't buy anything, just ask me.

Okay, so thanks. That was so fun. These icebreakers were fun. All right. So today we're talking about board experiences as part of the career path of a lawyer. I'm sure listeners can tell from those amazing bio points that our guests will have a lot to say on this topic. So I have a few questions that will guide our conversation. And they start from the early stages of this aspect of your professional journey. So my first question is, when you first you know, decided to, to do this type of work on boards. What were your goals for yourself? Not necessarily for the board, but for yourself. Why did you even want to do this?

And I can go first, for me. A big part of it was that I wanted to be involved in the community. I had done that kind of work all throughout high school all throughout undergrad all throughout law school. A lot of times you do that work because you think it's going to help you in your resume to apply for the next stage right. So you do an undergrad because you want to get into law school. And then you do it in law school because you think it will help you make connections but doing that, for me really instilled in me this idea that I think it's really important to always be giving back and so as soon as I felt like I had capacity, mental capacity, being a lawyer is hard. It's not easy right away to have time to do stuff like this. But as soon as I felt like I had some capacity to do it, I felt that it was important for me to at least try.

Amazing, Michael, what about yourself,

Um, he's a much better person. So I in all three of the boards I served on I was basically recruited to come onto the board. Usually, the funny part is I was recruited to come on the board by someone I think, in every instance, who I hadn't appreciated at the time was cycling off the board. So I would, you know, be sold, how great it was to work on this board. And these organizations had great missions and values and goals. And I thought okay, well I'll know so and so and then to realize at the next Annual General Meeting that that person wasn't going to be on the board anymore and being left on my own and which you know, has positives and negatives. But basically, it's not as thoughtful as Annie. I was asked to join a board. I thought about it. I met with some people on all of the boards and then decided whether or not it was going to be a fit. Only later did I you know try to find my way to figure out okay, well what am I doing here? What can I add, what can I get out of it personally, without feeling bad? And what can I give because that would make me feel you know better about what you get back, but it's definitely not as glamorous as Annie’s story. Sorry. 

Well, actually, just to piggyback off of that, you know what I had thought about like a lot of different ways in which to give back right, like you can go volunteer somewhere in your local community. But I ended up on boards of legal organizations for the same reason that Michael just said, someone just told me I should run or like you should run like the first one that I ever ran for election for was this South Asian Bar Association. It was a good friend of mine who was on the board who said you should run and he wouldn't let it go until I ran. So you know, I got lucky in that. My friend stayed on that board for a few years while I was on it, so I had a good time with him and got to meet some fun, different people as well. But you know, this route was really just because someone tapped me on the shoulder and said, you might enjoy this, it might be a good opportunity.

So both of you in some ways, were recruited and stumbled onto this path, but you both stayed on this path. So it must be giving you something. Can we just talk a little bit about that. Can you just talk a little bit about you know, why did you stick to it? 

Yeah, it's just really fulfilling and it's so interesting to see something that you think will help someone come to fruition in a way that you don't really see. I mean, I'm a commercial litigator, and so a lot of our matters go on for a really long time. A lot of our matters are matters where you don't see a lot of court time and you don't see big wins for your clients in short spans of time. Whereas sitting on a board, I could organize a mentorship event, I could organize a CPD event and I could do that in such a short span of time. See it be put out into the world and actually see it have an impact immediately, right. People will come up to you immediately and say, oh, this was a good event or oh, here's some feedback for maybe next time. That was really fulfilling to me. And it gave me that hit of dopamine that I needed to keep going.

That was a very connected experience, that's very connected.

Yeah. What about you, Michael?

Well, Annie hit the nail right on the head, you know, I made a little note to myself here and I said, being helpful, feels good, right. And so Annie, really, really nailed that one. It really does. But to answer your question, you know, I like the challenge of I think we're both litigators. We like the problem solving aspect. Here's a problem. What's a practical way to get to a solution? And so I found it particularly rewarding being on boards where you have a diversity of opinion, and, you know, at least pretending to be the practical one, because, you know, we get paid to do that we, you know, our clients, their resources aren't unlimited. They want us to, you know, give them good advice that's practical and cost effective and applying that skill set to a board, especially a non legal board is actually very rewarding, because sometimes through no particular skill, and just by your lived experience, you're like, oh, well, this seems to be a practical answer. Like it's not all or nothing.

You know, sometimes you can propose something on a board that most of the board is at least satisfied with or content with. So that, you know, to the question, why do I stay and I think, you know, you go around the circle or the sun enough times, and then you feel like I don't owe you but I feel like I've gained enough institutional knowledge about some of these boards that it's a shame to just, you know, have someone brand new come in and try to figure it out. But by the same token, it feels good to say oh, well, we've done you know, these five things in the past and three of them worked and two didn't and hopefully I can avoid, you know, people either wasting their time, not making mistakes because making mistakes, I find is, is a great way to learn. So that's fine, but you know, sometimes when you know things are just not going to work or maybe you need to do them different in light of how you've done them in the past. That feels good to be able to share that. But I find, it's funny, I say less and less at board meetings. But I like to think I'm a bit more impactful. I find sometimes if you've been on a board for a long time when you actually do say something that like people pay attention. So that actually is a good ego boost too because you're a bit judicious with what you're going to say but at least some of the people around the table know that you have a lot of experience on the board. But you can't abuse that privilege. So it feels good too. 

Yeah, I think that that's actually absolutely true. Like there are people on some of our boards who have more experience than I and you know, like, a big part of my time nowadays is spent on South Asian Bar Association. And because I'm President, I do actually speak quite a bit at those board meetings. So I do run them. But you know, I have noticed in the past that if, even if something wasn't quite in my bailiwick, as long as I didn't have an opinion on everything, because I had been on the board for a long time. If I did express an opinion, people took it really seriously just given the fact that I had been on the board for a while. I had learned a lot about how it operated, what it had done in the past that didn't really work, what it had done in the past that our members really appreciated. Absolutely, yeah. 

So the longer you stick to it the more you get out of it.

Absolutely. I think that that's true. And that's, I think that's kind of like the philosophy of everything right. The more you give to something, the more you get back. And I think that's definitely true of any type of board involvement or I'm sure any other community involvement.

Yes, I'm hearing sense of mastery, sense of community, the ability to mentor and actually give real contribution that moves the needle forward on the actual board, because you understand their issues.

Obviously the nerves wear off and it's not that it gets easier, but it's just, I have to think of a better word. It feels less daunting. How about that, when you've got a big issue and you've tackled something? Maybe not the exact same issue, but there's a familiarity here. This isn't the big scary monster that you thought as a brand new board member. You know, the first I don't know um, team meetings were like, oh my g-d, what are they talking about? What is this acronym? I feel like I'm sort of out of my wits here, but then so that the completely passes. And I have to say it's liberating when you just feel comfortable. And, I think meeting the people because, you know, it's not like all these organizations replace their boards entirely. So there's some continuity. And you know, it's nice to just know people, you can walk into any room, even an event to that the organization with which you're associated that is hosting, and you never really feel alone. And you know, so that when you're meeting people for the first time, once you know even a third or a quarter of the people or 10% of the people it doesn't feel so daunting meaning the other 90% Whereas when you know nobody, then it's like okay, let's, let's get the ball rolling, so that that's another reason I think I stay involved. It's just the familiarity is nice, it's comforting.

Yeah. Oh, that's actually a really interesting point. Michael, I've noticed a big thing that has happened with me over the course of being involved with these boards is that the more I stay involved, the more I go into rooms where I don't know a lot of people, I tend to find at least a few people that I know. And that makes it so much easier. And especially in a profession like law where it is really important to stay connected with your legal community and it's important to know other people in the profession, both for professional development and I would say for other maybe personal or, you know, mental health reasons, whatever. That's really helpful. It gives you a way just like a little in right? Just knowing one person at that event can make a big difference, between you feeling completely uncomfortable at that event and feeling like oh, okay, I have someone to rely on but I will use that as a jumping point to then go out and meet other people. Or maybe they can introduce me to someone right? So absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head and Michael with that one. That's a big personal benefit that I have felt even though it's not really something I was seeking out or that I thought would come from this. It's helped.

And I like sucking people in to hey, come and meet so and so. Yeah, because you see, you know, we are some of these people just at a different stage in our life, right? Like we are them 10 years ago or five years ago. And you know, you see someone who may or may not be nervous, it really doesn't matter. Where you say hey come meet someone, so that I have to say is quite rewarding. The more I've been involved with certain organizations, then the more it feels good to make those connections for other people. Because it comes a certain point where you don't quote unquote, need that connection. Most of the time, you can go into an organization thinking, Oh, I'm going to either get so much business out of this and then nothing ever comes of it. And then you stay involved with certain organization, but there's all these intangibles. And you know to the extent something comes of it from a pecuniary standpoint, it's like so tangential you don't really care. So what you end up getting out of it isn't what you thought you'd get out of it at the outset at least to a certain extent, right. You're not just going into an organization thinking you're gonna get something. But you know, like we’re lawyers, we'd like to network and I'm at a small firm and we need to be nice to other lawyers and we care about our reputation because we have a vested interest in that. But it's funny, in a good way, how nothing pans out the way you think at the outset, but you're still happy with how it pans out. So, I've liked that.

Well, I think that's why this conversation is helpful. You know, for lawyers that may be thinking that they want to do this but they're not really sure what the experience would be like for them. So, I think it's wonderful that you're both sharing, especially the things that you know, you didn't expect.

I would say especially on like a legal focus board or one that has law or lawyers or whatever, you know, they keep beating. They've always said whoever they are, but you know we say to people here too, you know, you really only have one reputation, you have to guard it. I guarantee if you do nothing, nothing will happen. That's the one universal truth. But even going out and meeting people and being on boards is kind of like you know, when you argue a case, on a motion or on a trial, your opponent also you know, could be your friend one day so how you behave, and what skill you show, you know, will radiate and you know, it'll be like a wave. It'll hit a shore one day, you'll have no idea what shore it's going to. And I guarantee you it'll hit the one you don't expect. Because it'll be this person said they saw you here and you said something nice or whatever. And then it comes back to you. There's no direct line between A and B. So you really need to believe in that organization and do something fun and positive and you know that other stuff will follow. But you're never going to be able to force it. But that I found is nice. I always ask them well, how did you find me and it's like so convoluted. So you might as well just do something you really like, be good at it and then have that speak for itself. Be nice.

And I you know, especially for talking to people who are interested in joining a board. Absolutely. I think business development is kind of top of mind right because you see it as a way to network. And I will always say my network has absolutely grown as a result of the various boards that I have sat on. Has it ever brought me any business? Nope. Well, never directly right. But that network has served me really well in so many other ways. And I think that there is also something to be said for your reputation and your profile in the legal community. And I do think that I have built a better reputation and a better profile in the legal community just by way of doing this. So you know, maybe someday that will pan into business. Maybe not. And that's okay, too. But yeah, I absolutely agree. Michael, if you're gonna do it, because you never know what's going to come back to you in the short run, or medium run. Do something you enjoy, right? Do something you're passionate about something you care about. We're really busy. We don't have a ton of time to be throwing around at networking events or community events like we have to be careful with our time so you may as well do something that you love, and that you think will really make a difference either in your life or in someone else's.

And I think what's important is the like the cadence of it, because when you're on a board, you're interacting with the same people over and over. And so with the impressions you make with them, you have more of an opportunity. On you as well, because you are learning about other people. As opposed to just you know, you could show up at a wine and cheese event and maybe meet someone. That's why I always go to the same things over and over, for the same reason or one of the reasons you serve on a board. You have a lot of interaction with the same group of people, and it'll evolve over time. I find that you know, frankly, it's easier because once you've met someone or a group of people, you get to develop a more in depth relationship with someone than just hey, where are you from? What firm do you work at? You know? Whereas serving on a board you have a common purpose. Right? The stuff you learn about people and their lives and their practices is basically secondary. But it's still interesting and you are united by a common purpose. And that, frankly makes that relationship - valuable is the wrong word. But I value that relationship on a personal level more, right? It's not worth more like you know, in any kind of monetary sense. Not that. I feel more, you know, fulfilled knowing people that way, by serving together on a board with them. It's a deeper connection.

Wow, wonderful. So Can the both of you share some highlights / lowlights, you know, examples of where did you feel? Wow, that that just went so well. This is why I'm here. I know I was recruited but this is why I'm here. That's why I've stuck to it. You know, on the lowlights. Like, you know, something. Oh, that was really hard. And how did you overcome it? 

Yeah. I can go because I actually have examples for both kind of top of mind. So I'll start with my low light. Because it was very early on in my board journey again. SABA was the first board that I sat on. And one of the first events that I got handed to run for SABA was an event for one of our sponsors. But our sponsor wanted the event to be on a very specific day. And at a time where we didn't think we would have a lot of people attend. And they were also running the event in a way that was not really targeted to the people who we thought it would most benefit. So there was a bit of a communication breakdown between us and our sponsor partner. And eventually we ran the event, and it did not go well. There were very few people in attendance. I think maybe we had only a couple of people sign up. And so at the last minute I was messaging all of the board being like please anyone who was downtown, please come attend this event. It didn't. It wasn't great. And it sucks because it was with a sponsor partner who had actually given financial aid to the organization. But, you know, sometimes that just happens right? The event just doesn't land. It doesn't. Maybe it isn't marketed properly. Maybe it isn't targeted properly, maybe it wasn't actually as helpful as you thought it would be. And that's okay. It helped to rely and lean on all of my other colleagues to tell me about, you know, how we might do things differently the next time and make sure that our relationship with our sponsor was still okay. And we move forward from there. And we still often think of that event, when we at the board, when we think about like all of the things we want to make sure we are avoiding, sometimes like someone will raise the fact that hey, you remember the event that was really bad back then, let's just not do that. So, you know, but here I am, like I'm still here, you know, many, many years later, actively involved in this board. But my highlight on SABA has been something that I'm actually quite personally proud of. So when COVID 19 hit, and there were all of the protests going on for George Floyd's death in the US. I felt that there was also a lot of need in our membership to be talking about that issue specifically. And you know, we normally at SABA host a big gala. We have like hundreds of people come, it used to be a gala in November. Every year at that time, we were doing it in November. And because of COVID we weren't able to do the gala. So instead I proposed a conference on anti-black racism. And we ran a virtual conference. We were so new to virtual programming as were most people at the time, but we ran a full day conference on anti-black racism, including a workshop specifically designed to address anti-black racism in the South Asian community. Because that is something that I had personal experience with and I knew that a lot of our members had personal experience with and we had, I think 150 people attend this conference they attended for the full day. We had remarks being sent to us from the Prime Minister and the Premier and at the time, Mayor Cory. We had remarks come in that we were able to play. And this conference, I thought was something that our membership was craving, and that it really needed. And I felt like I really actually helped contribute positively to my community just by spearheading that conference. So that's something I'm really proud of. I still think about it a lot. And I think you know, it's really important for us to be listening to our membership and like what they want from us to be able to bring them things that are actually helpful and useful for them. So anyway, so that was my highlight, a conference. It was I thought impactful for the people who attended.

How inspiring Annie. And also sort of illustrates the point earlier the both of you were making about the longevity, sort of you sticking around with the organization means you have your finger on the pulse, you understand what works, what doesn't work, and it makes doing something different less risky. 

Yeah, that's a wonderful story. 

Thank you, Michael.

Okay, well, I don't want to clear the dance floor now with a low. Let’s start with a high. I would say on most of the organizations, anything to do with like the younger members or the new professionals, any event like that I get a lot of satisfaction out of helping to plan and even just participating them in them. Because you know, they're young and nervous and they don't have any idea of basically what to do. And any kind of event that helps incorporate them either into the organization or into the profession. You know, just by talking to people seems to be very helpful. So I, you know, those events, whether I helped plan them or participate, I feel particularly proud on every board frankly. I've been involved a lot with fundraising. So, you know, convincing a sponsor that it's worth for them to spend their time and money on your event organization, that feels nice. Those are good bragging rights, to say I got the sponsor and you know, we'll live to see another day. So those are particularly rewarding. Although anyone who does any fundraising will immediately be typecast. That's like the Hotel California. You can never leave that hotel. Once you're in fundraising, then you will be there forever. So you just have to resign. Yes. So once you're there, you're there. So you just have to, you know, make your peace with it. But and if you're good at it, frankly, the only real skill you need, as a bit of a tangent, is the ability to ask for money, which most people are terrified of doing. Once you get over that emotion, you know, hiccup or hurdle then it's smooth sailing. To get back to your question, the low, I don't know if you found this Annie, but both boards because they were preexisting sometimes you get there and you see that there's a history between certain members, not a negative. Where you can tell Okay, whatever this person says, I'm pretty sure this person is not going to go for that idea, no matter how reasonable it is. So especially I would say in the early days, you know, I never really actively took sides. I would agree with some statements. But you know, I had to be mindful in the early days on these boards. It's not a matter of aligning oneself. But it's nice to be a free agent in the early years where you can be lobbied to a position or convinced of the merits or not of a position. So that's, you know, that's taking a low and trying to turn it into a positive. So you'll see that. For example, in some legal organizations, they want to take a policy position on a government initiative or whatever. And then, you know, the board will speak with one voice but that doesn't mean there hasn't been a huge diversity of opinion before you get there. And sometimes you can tell, people leave a meeting with a sour taste in their mouth because they just completely disagree with the position that your organization is taking. So that, you know I frankly, never felt that way because there's merit. I've seen that there's merit to all of the arguments. Like I've rarely ever come across someone who says this is the policy position we should adopt and it's just completely you know, on the moon. Like that almost never happens. But it's unfortunate where sometimes you know, meetings get heated because people don't agree with either the direction the organization should take or… So those are, you know, just a necessary, evil is not the right word, but it's a necessary hurdle that you'll have to overcome as a board member. And you know, I think being open minded is key to working through the difficult situations because if you just say, oh, yeah, I agree with her, I disagree with him, or vice versa, then I don't know to what extent you are being open minded, but it's hard in the early days, because you don't know anyone you're trying to latch on to. You know, make that connection. But that's been the challenge. Oh, a challenging part of serving on a board.

Right. And just to piggyback off that, sorry, really quickly. So interestingly, Michael, you know, I've been a part of many a discussion where we have had very heated debates about what approach an organization should take. And I think, truly, you know, if you're lucky, you sit on boards where everyone is at least being thoughtful and mindful about the approach they're suggesting, and there is some merit to it. But as you're going through that challenging experience, if you come out of it on the other side with something where everyone feels comfortable being like, Yes, this is what is in the best interest of the organization. Those can be some of the most rewarding experiences, right? Because you've had this really tough slog, and you're all talking about things that you really care about. You're talking about an organization that you really care about, and topics that you all really care about, that you've been able to come to an agreement for what you think is best for the organization. So if you're able to do that, you know, sometimes it needs the right moderator, the right leader to get you through that. Sometimes it's just a matter of, you know, everyone at the table having the same goal, which is to come up with the best decision for that organization. You know, but when you are able to do that, it's incredibly rewarding and you really realize the importance of being respectful and mindful and really focusing on what is the important piece, which, if you're on a board of directors, really, you know, your duty is to the organization.

I think that's helpful. I was wondering how much the two of you had run into people being really dug in on their positions, you know, and biases and group think, that sort of thing. Sounds like these are coming up. And, it sounds like the two of you and your approach sort of makes it easier for the room to be a little bit more welcoming to different points of view. So it sounds like the two of you bring that to your board experiences.

Yeah, I've never found that pounding your fists on the table particularly effective. I've seen people walk out of meetings and half the time I would just chalk that up to whatever happened in the past bubbles back up to the surface. Our former managing partner will say you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar and it really applies especially when you're part of a larger group. But avoiding groupthink like you mentioned. You know, sometimes you can see like, a group barreling towards something that you just don't agree with only because everyone is kind of saying yes, and wow, objectively okay, this is not good. How do I stop this train wreck? Even is it worth it? I guess is the first question. Do I care enough? Does it matter? Most of the time it doesn't. So you know, there's a lot of capital you expend when you throw yourself in front of a train. So it kind of needs to be that important to you. But sometimes, you can see things spiraling and so I have interjected on occasion to say, Okay, this is going nowhere, right. We need to refocus. But again, not often. So what's nice when you're a bit judicious with interjections like that, then people take it seriously.

Yeah, no, I have seen that. Absolutely. And I think my approach has always been to like, ask the questions, and then just see right. If everyone is still feeling the way they're feeling, then you know, like I am, but one person on this board and the board needs to make the decision together. So you know, I might just ask like, oh, have we thought about this or Hey, like, you know, you mentioned x should we also be considering y? And I raised the questions and then I wait to see how things pan out and you know, maybe I will be converted to the way that the board is leaning. But if I'm not, you know, often I will say you know, like, that's not my preference, but I can kind of see the merit or whatever. And, you know, ultimately, I think, Michael, you're right, like you have to decide how important it is for the organization before you lay out all of your capital in terms of standing up for something that you just don't agree with. And I think I have been very fortunate to sit on boards, mostly where everyone really does have the best interests of the organization at mind. So, I'm really not working against the tide. You know, like, oftentimes just asking the right question or getting the right person to say the right thing will shift the tide or will raise enough questions or get the discussion going in a direction that you want. So you know, I've been fortunate where a lot of people really do try to come to it with the same purpose in mind, which is to reach good decisions for the organization.

I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that your experiences have helped you to form your own leadership style.

Yes, I think so. Absolutely.

Very specific ways of reading and you know, and very specific ways of standing up for what's right and for remembering what is the vision and we're, you know, remembering how to influence the group Yeah.

I think that's right like for me personally like one of the things that sitting on these kinds of boards has helped me with is really self confidence, right. Realizing that I have something to contribute. Realizing that stuff that I say maybe does have some weight behind it. Realizing I do have some experience maybe with the organization or with whatever else that I'm talking about. That makes my voice valuable. But then also, you know, I have seen before me, presidents of the boards or chairpersons of the boards or other leaders take different leadership approaches. And I really honed in on the ones that I appreciated and where I felt included and where I felt valued and where I wanted to contribute the most. And then I have tried to emulate that, but then also interject in my own personality, my own style. So you know, I felt like I have learned a lot from the people who I have worked with on these boards and it's made a huge impact in terms of how I approach working with other people, not just on those boards, but even like how I approach working with people here at the firm like if I'm working with a group, especially if I'm working with students. I'm trying to be a leader in a way that I think is useful and helpful and uplifts everyone together like that. Those were really big, important things for me in terms of leadership, and I tried to infuse that. And that's because those were the types of leaders who inspired me when I was being led.

Well, this question is specifically for you, Michael. You mentioned at the beginning, you know working with legal sector boards and boards outside the legal sector. Could you comment because I know lawyers who are contemplating doing this type of work and they can't decide. So just can you comment a little bit on your experience, one versus the other?

Yeah, I would do both, if you can. I know time is finite. One, the legal board, keeps you connected to your community in your profession. And one, in this case it was the CIBPA, it's another community frankly but not necessarily so geared towards your own profession. I could be you know, a hospital or some kind of volunteer position or anything like that. So I think I found it personally rewarding but also necessary to have one foot in each only because there's a whole world out there and if you're only doing stuff that is legal and has no other bent to it, then that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but it can, at least for me feel a bit insular at some point. So there's a whole other world outside of the legal profession. So to the extent that it keeps me grounded with what reality is, then there's a fringe benefit. But I found them both rewarding in different ways, but also there's some overlap between the experience. But what's really, I would say rewarding or really cool, is that I can say oh on this other board we do this and it works. And then to the other board, on the first board we've done this and it really works. So that actually I have to say has been fun, being able to cross pollinate the experiences and to share the knowledge, not just yours. I didn't come up with any of the stuff someone else did or a group of people or through past experiences on one you can share it with the other and they're like, Oh, we hadn't thought about doing that. You feel really smart. Meanwhile, it was someone else's idea. You get the point, which is nice. Because you’ve got the Toronto Lawyers Association and then you've got the Ontario Bar Association, the Advocates’ Society, who are you know, not necessarily doing the same things but are kind of operating in the same space. When you have something that's completely outside you know, it helps open your eyes a bit more than you know, you knew was possible. So if you can, I would do you know, a legal and non-legal one. 

Michael, did you do you find that when you sit on a non-legal board, people think of you as like the lawyer and therefore maybe give you more weight because of that.

Well, maybe I hadn't thought about that. That's a great point. What happens definitely is you're asked for like legal advice. What's hard is sitting on a board as a lawyer with all of your experience of the law and also your clients. Basically, I would say, you know, as litigators, that one of the key value that we can add to our clients is just the experience of every other client. Not necessarily brilliant legal argument, but hey, this is what works. This is what doesn't work. And that's kind of practical. So what I find difficult on a non-legal board is not being a lawyer, right? So how to split that hair. I don't know if I've done successfully, but sometimes I can you say well here's clearly a legal issue that the board is having. And here's some insight I can offer. But I've never, rightly or wrongly, seen my role as being a lawyer on the board. Like I'm not counsel to the board. I just happen to be the lawyer who sits on the board. And that's it. And it irritates people. I would sometimes say, well, we should really hire a lawyer for this issue. And then they look at you like well, aren't you a lawyer? Like, yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm sitting on this board. Right. I'm a director. I'm not counsel to the organization, and especially when they're volunteer, you know, I bet some people think well, what are you doing here? Like, that's why, you know, you're here. I'm like, Well, no, I'm here to give you know, my legal experience, but I'm not necessarily here to give you legal advice. So if there's an employment issue with staff or whatnot, you can you know, I found it helpful to say, well, here's a range of possibilities and things that can happen but really, in this specific circumstance, you know, we should probably hire someone to advise the board. That's been the challenge and a good one, but I've never thought about like you said Annie, that yeah, they definitely listen to everything you say. And that's what the difficult part is to basically, you know, filter or to edit what you're about to say so that they don't turn into well, the lawyer said, We can do this thing. So that's hard. 

To say enough that you're saying something that's meaningful, but like not so much that they think you've given them legal advice? Yeah.

That's tough. Actually. Yeah.

Well, I think you've raised a very important distinction between doing board work in the legal sector versus outside, which is creating some boundaries around your roles, and clarifying expectations about you know, what are you doing there as the lawyer on the board versus as you know, a lawyer that is giving them advice, and to do that very sort of intentionally?

Yeah, it's like if you if you want to do x, then we really need to do Y, but I'm not doing the Y portion.

That's the boundary, correct?

Yeah, that's really good. Okay, so this conversation has been amazing. You've covered like, everything I wanted to ask about. I'm wondering if the two of you have any advice for people who might feel a little bit more reluctant to speak up in a board meeting, to participate, particularly when you know what you've described as other board members getting dug in about their opinions, or there's strong emotions in the room, or a lot of history. And you know, so let's say you're the person who doesn't know how to speak up. Do you have any comments or have you seen somebody do that well?

I've never had that problem. So I have the other problem, which is to keep quiet. But that's most people  when I see conflict on a board and most people kind of retreat into themselves, which is completely normal if you ask me. So someone eventually comes forward to, you know, implore the people to come back to reality or whatnot. I've done this myself where I've been reluctant to say something and hopefully you've met some kindred spirits on the board that you can talk to after and then, you know, I don't think anyone wants to be a leaf kind of fluttering in the wind by themselves. So if you know that someone has your back, then really maybe at the next meeting, you can you can speak up and not feel like you hear crickets after you say something. And it's funny because, you know, I served on a board with this person and years later, she came up to me and she says, you know, you always stuck up for me in these board meetings and I had no conscious recollection of ever doing that because I have a big mouth so I probably said that I liked what she said and you know, people who know me will know that if I don't like what you say you're gonna know about that as well. But you know, that was really nice, that was her lasting memory, which is sounds like oh, I don't know but you're welcome. So to answer your question, Sandra, it's, you know, if you have a champion or someone in your corner, then it's just like this nervousness is taken off your shoulders, and they're like, Okay, I can say something. Just, you know, don't bite off more than you can chew. Sometimes if you say less, it's better. Sometimes you're like, oh, okay, I want to support you. But the first thing you said was good, but the next 15 things you said are, you know, kind of out there and I don't know if anyone's gonna go for it. So start small, and something you really care about.

I absolutely echo everything that Michael said. I think absolutely having someone else in your corner. Having talked about the issue with other people will help you feel more comfortable in terms of approaching it when you're actually in the meeting. I think it just helps to distance, like your personal feelings from what you think is good for the board or good for the organization. And to really frame it in terms of what you think might be beneficial and the reasons for that, right. So if you have a membership or if you have a catchment area that you're serving, or whoever it is, like whoever you are serving, you know, really center what you're trying to say in that the goals of the board and the vision of the board. It kind of helps to maybe take away some of that personal feeling. Where if people have comments on this thing, hopefully they will not feel as much like they are personal attacks on you or comments on your personal beliefs. But you know, we sit on these boards or organizations that do work that we believe in and that we are passionate about and we think is important. So sometimes they can feel a little personal. But sometimes to do really cool, interesting things. You have to be a little vulnerable. So, you know, protect yourself but also take the step if you think you need to, if you think it's going to be important and helpful.

These were amazing tips. Thank you so much. I think our listeners are going to get a lot out of this. And I thank you both so much for your time and your insights. And to our listeners, to learn more about Michael please go to AGMlawyers.com. And to learn about Annie, please go to torkin.com You've been listening to Get in the driver's seat, stories. about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor, a Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. Take care everybody.