The how & why of doing DEI right! Guest: Michelle Davis

Today, we're looking at DEI from a different perspective, completely. Rather than the shoulds of it, we're addressing the why and the how of doing it right.

The landscape of professional services firms is somewhat divided when it comes to the difficult topic of DEI. Some firms have policies. Some don’t. Some are open to learning more. Some are disillusioned, disappointed are disinclined. Further still, following the basic requirements may not have had much of an impact and, as a result, there are new or lingering concerns and uncertainty about the value of these programs. 

Some of the questions that came up in this episode, include: 

• Why it's in your interest to do DEI right. 
• What does it mean to do DEI right? 
• How can DEI make your firm stronger? 
• What are firms getting wrong about DEI? 
• What are the missed opportunities with DEI in professional practice? 

Skillfully tackling this sensitive topic and sharing actual experiences with me is Michelle Davis. To learn more about Michelle, please go to mvdconsulting.ca.

You're listening to Get in the Driver’s Seat! We’re telling stories about leadership moments in small to mid-sized professional practices. I’m your host, Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach for lawyers, architects, consultants and other professionals at Bekhor Management.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Get in the driver's seat. We're telling stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor, practice management coach at Bekhor Management. Today, we're talking about the how and the why of doing DEI right, and to tackle what can be a difficult topic to grasp. I'm excited to introduce Michelle Davis, the founder and CEO of MVD Consulting Inc, where she helps, not-for-profit leaders and businesses create equitable, just, healthy, happy, and thriving workplaces. She is an educator at heart has taught at several universities and recently received the University of Toronto’s Arbor Award. Michelle also serves her community as a board director at the Jamaican Canadian Association. 

Welcome Michelle!

Thank you so much Sandra. So glad to be here. It's a big topic. Yeah very big. 

And sensitive. And as I was saying just before we hit the record button, I started this podcast two years ago and have been meaning to cover this topic ever since the beginning. So I'm just so glad to have met you Michelle and to feel sort of comfortable with your approach on this. It's very delicate. Actually why don't you just repeat that because I feel like that's a good way to get this conversation going. 

Absolutely Sandra. My approach to diversity equity & inclusion is that I want to invite people into the conversation. I don't want to exclude people. I don't want people to feel defensive. So I'm always thinking about ways to you know what terminology to use or how to approach this subject matter in a way that people feel okay, because we all need to be part of the conversation a part of the work, in order to advance it. So that's how I approach it. So I'm not scolding or being negative. Instead I'm trying to approach it in a way that people feel comfortable and can enter into the conversations that we're having. Yeah that's great and I'm sure that you know sometimes people have good intentions but they don't even know how to get started or they don't know the right questions or they don't feel comfortable asking the questions. Yes and we need to hear those questions. Last night in the the town of Ajax where I live, the anti-racism task force had a meeting and there were two white community members sitting at my table. One gentleman said you know my friends wouldn't feel comfortable coming here. They’re not sure if there's a place for us to be at these tables, at these events and conversations and you know hearing their perspectives and ensuring that there's space for them to talk about what is allyship and what can they do within their own communities with their neighbors and their friends as well as you know on a larger scale. So it was a really important conversation. I was really happy that they attended so that we could share that space together.

I love that you just shared that here, just such a relatable little figment of a story right? How many of us have thought oh should / I shouldn't I? I don't know if I'll be welcomed or you know if people will see my my good intentions. I like the idea of allyship in so many different shapes and forms and this is a really good place for it. Okay so let's start unpacking this with why it's in the interest... So I work with professional service firms, and you know that those decisions are typically in the hands of the owner, the partners, the managing partner. So why is it even in their interest to do DEI right?

What a beautiful, great question. To start with Sandra, it's so important that we are all committed to advancing diversity, equity & inclusion in workplaces, because the research continues to show that organizations and businesses that do this right tend to be more profitable, tend to be more productive. Their employees are more satisfied and more engaged & they stay longer. So it is important that it's done right as a core business operation. It's not something that you know, that team down the hallway does, or that person with the title does. It's something that everyone contributes to, because it creates workplaces and societies where we all feel welcomed and where we all feel comfortable, and that allows everyone to thrive. So it's really important that, yeah, everyone is committed to the work. The work isn't easy, as we know. It's not a quick fix. I think sometimes people are looking for, okay, you know, we'll do this training session, and then we're done. That's just, you know, scratching the surface, really, there's a lot of work that needs to be put into it, especially if you want to go really deep, if you want to see longer term changes within workplaces, within societies. It requires a really big, long term commitment to achieving it. And sometimes it's taking baby steps. It's not always doing huge, big things. It could just be small things and just chipping away at it. And eventually those small things add up to big changes, then big advances along that DEI journey.

Yeah. Okay, so some of what I just heard from you about the benefits, which is important. It's a motivator, right? These professional service firms, they're not doing volunteer work. They need to be motivated to do the work, because, as you said, rightly, it's hard. This is hard. And so what I heard from you is improving culture. Culture is huge in professional service firms. Like the value of that alone is huge, retaining top talent and that you can look at as a financial equation. Okay, so I save money on hiring, onboarding, training, but also that's a point of difference if you're able to keep the top talent into your company, and it's like, imagine all those nights of you know, not having sleepless nights because you're worried someone's going to leave, or they did leave, and now you have to do double duty. That alone is huge.

So absolutely Sandra. So getting people to understand that, as you said, it differentiates your organization. For others, you can become a leader in your industry by doing DEI and doing it well. So you're able to not only retain top talent, but you're able to recruit top talent. So when organizations are hiring, they're thinking how this candidate fits into our culture. Well, that candidate is doing the same about you. Is it somewhere where I want to go? Will I feel safe? Will I, you know, be promoted? Can I see myself there long term? Well, if you not only say that you do diversity, equity and inclusion work, but you have evidence that you're actually, you know, advancing on it, that makes you attractive as an organization to that top talent. And also think that investors, funders, you know, your external stakeholders, are also wanting to work with and to invest in organizations that are doing this work and doing it well. So again and again, in whatever metric you look at, it is important that organizations are doing this work.

Okay, so this is a good segue to get into what does it mean to do it right? Well, there's a lot of pressure on some sectors, not all professional service firms, and also not necessarily all sizes. Larger firms may feel more pressure, I don't know. And so they feel pressured to check some boxes, right, and do some level of DEI policy, but not necessarily reap the benefit, because they're not necessarily following through on making it actually work. So that's what we mean by doing DEI, right? So, Michelle, just, can you think of any stories where you know you were just alluding to the person who is looking for a job, who might be considered top talent, who's evaluating different options, accounting, law, architects, whatever it is and and they're looking at their culture, and they want to choose a firm that is, you know, suitable for them and this means something to them. Can you think of any stories where actually the firm benefited because they did DEI, right? 

I can think of, you know, a client that I work with a few years ago. They had, you know, some issues with some folks, some of the stakeholders, feeling that, you know, racism was occurring in the organization, and it wasn't being handled well. So they invited myself and a colleague to come in, and what we started with was listening. So we did listening circles. What are people's experiences, what's happening on the ground? We held a number of sessions, and then we're able to meet with, you know, the executives, and, you know, share our findings, and from there, then map out, you know, how they would address the issues that needed to be addressed. It's important to start with that listening. So sometimes people started with the statements, with the policies, but sometimes they haven't checked in with whether it's staff or volunteers or alumni, whatever you know, depending on the makeup of the organization, who are your important stakeholders in the in the workplace, in the organization, what are their experiences? Because these are your external champions. These are the people talking about your organization. You want them to be out there as your ambassadors, so checking in with them, asking them, what's working, what's not working. And so by doing that, inviting them into the conversation, letting them know that what they shared has been heard and is being taken into account, and that we put together an advisory group, an equity and inclusion advisory group, where, again, some of the key members could who, you know, had the time and interest, could participate and really help to advance the work. And I think as a result of this, the organization sent out an update a couple months ago four years after starting this work, to see where they've grown and how they've been able to attract different funders, different corporate partners, new persons who are coming into the organization. You can see that by doing this work and the leadership. They were really nervous. They were really afraid they were going to make a mistake, they were going to say something wrong, they were gonna offend people, so part of the work was also coaching them and supporting them and letting them know. Okay, you might, you probably will. You know, there's a good chance you're gonna do something wrong, but that's okay. People are okay with that. You make mistakes, you learn from it. You're committed to not repeating the same mistakes, but it's part of being transparent, right? We don't need to be perfect, and so as a result of being transparent, being committed, being willing to do the work, even though it was difficult, a few years later, they're seeing, like the truth and reconciliation work that they've been doing with indigenous community members, indigenous elders, they've really become a bit of a shining light. They're standing out in their industry because of this work that they've done.

Fascinating. And what was the life cycle of that? Like, how long from initial effort to starting to see some kind of benefit, to starting to see bigger benefit? Can you give us some kind of a timeline on that? 

Sure, I would say at least six months in, they started seeing some of that benefit, and then it started leapfrogging, you know, after a year, even seeing the difference in the confidence levels with the executives that we were working with after a year, how they're able to start owning the work, so they weren't just sitting back and letting the external consultants kind of take away the responsibility. They were able to, you know, feel a bit more emboldened as they move forward with the work, with more courage and, you know, more humility. And so, you know, six months the ship is kind of turning around. A year, you know, the ship is in the 180 and and you know, after that, it's going in the direction it should be going in. So again, it's a longer term commitment, but they are willing to do that. And as a result, you know, they could see the changes at the organization, then I think people outside looking in can also see those changes. 

So as you were describing this story, Michelle, I was wondering, you know, if you, if you initiate something like this, are there people who potentially are so hesitant to share their views that it creates an obstacle to the process right from the beginning?

A great question. So I often have. Some people are hesitant. But again, I think because of the environment that I create in my work, where people feel okay, and also, as a consultant, I don't know if this is your experience, Sandra, but I say that you're an, outsider, you have that position, that perspective. So sometimes people will say things to me that they may not say to their boss or to the executives in their organization, but because I'm not their supervisor, I don't sign their paychecks, so they may feel more comfortable sharing that with me. So as a result, usually people are okay sharing even if it's not a popular opinion, they eventually will feel okay to share that. And I'm okay when people share that unpopular opinion, because then when it's out in the open, we can unpack it, we can address it, we can reframe it, maybe help to shift some of their understanding, maybe offer some additional information that they may not have. You know, whether or not they change their position. You know, I'm not responsible for that. None of us are responsible for that, but I do my part in, you know, framing it, creating, you know, providing some more information and support so that if they do choose to change their opinion, they have that information to do it. So usually people feel comfortable enough to share their opinions. And I like when they do that, because then I can, as I said, you know, unpack it with them.

Yeah, I have, by the way, to answer your question, I have seen that. I think what we're talking about here really is creating a feeling of safety for people, especially if this is new to your firm, right to talk about things that you haven't talked about before, and you don't know if people will agree with you. In the coaching work I do, which is about mindset, you know, a couple of these self sabotaging techniques will show up. Like, if you're a people pleaser, you don't want to displease the people in the room, so you're like, you know, filtering yourself, the tendency to want to be a perfectionist also will show up. You mentioned that we don't need to be perfect, right?

And especially in leadership, right? And I think there's an explanation that you're supposed to be perfect but that puts so much pressure on people. Right, yeah perfect all the time. 

Well, and, ironically, you spoke so beautifully about it, that you don't need to be perfect, and ironically, some of the best leaders in the world, that's exactly what they are. They're just honest right? They're like okay well you know I am struggling with this thing and they'll just put it out there as you know maybe you can help me. This is the thing I would like to accomplish, but here's the thing I'm not actually good at, yet. 

Yes I love that how you said that and again it's that inviting people in. That's why I have a team. That is why right? So how can we figure this out together? People I think really appreciate. I know myself I appreciate that invitation in to bring my skills and expertise and help to figure out the way forward. So yeah I think it's really important as a leader, that humility to say yeah I don't know everything. I don't want to know everything. I know my strengths and what I'm great at. I know what your strengths are. So let's tap into yours. So that strength-based approach I think is really important in this work too. 

So recognizing everybody's strengths. Yeah. Not just the people at the top. Basically, it's a more democratic way of looking at strengths. 

I think so and like this work is so huge no one person, no one team should be responsible for achieving diversity, equity & inclusion. So we need everyone to see, or as many people as possible, to see how they can carry a little bit of the work, shoulder a little bit of the responsibility and be willing to bring their strengths to the table to really advance the work. 

Can you Michelle make that a little bit more concrete because it feels like an abstract idea? So where you say okay let's say we have a 25 person firm and um maybe there's three people at the top that are considered the leadership group, um how do you get maybe all 25 or a significant number of people to feel like they have a role in this? What does that look like? 

Great question Sandra. So there might be a committee that's going to take the lead on it. That committee can you know have the work plan, start mapping out some key metrics etc. Then they're going to share maybe quarterly updates to the wider team to get their feedback, their input on part of that work plan and seeing who is responsible for different areas of the work, so who's responsible for communications, who's responsible maybe for data collection/ data analysis. Maybe there's someone in the firm that would chip in and offer those resources, who's going to maybe handle stakeholder engagement, so who you know engages with the outside wider community. Who might take that on? What partners? We can't do everything, we don't want to do everything, but we have some key partners that we would love to tap into you know their knowledge and expertise. So who are those folks? so again mapping, you know looking at the various aspects of the work over maybe three to five years and then showing spaces where people can contribute their knowledge and their skills as well and maybe oh I know someone can say I know so and so. We don't have this internally, but I know where I can go externally to get that information or I volunteer on this committee outside of work and we've done X. Maybe I can share that report or maybe make an introduction to the leadership at that organization so we can learn a little bit from them or maybe invite them into one of our meetings. So again I think if you open it out because again it touches every aspect of a business or an organization. So that means every team within that organization has a role to play. But again it's just thinking of engaging people in their areas of responsibility, their areas of expertise, to really drive the work forward. 

Thank you that made it so much easier to picture how this actually would roll out. What I love about that description Michelle is like okay so if you think about a law firm where they all have sort of you know consistent types of experience and skills, this is another way of looking at those skills right? Who's the outgoing one who's connected to people who might be comfortable talking about this & engaging. Who's the one that loves data? So they're all lawyers maybe but they all have these other sides of their personality and other things they actually are interested in doing right?

Exactly. and so these wonderful skill sets, these wonderful strengths are already there, but sometimes we're not tapping into them because again we kind of get siloed. Even in diversity, equity & inclusion where I'm seeing more organizations are creating the teams, bringing on staff, it's really exciting to see. I haven't seen this ever um you know in Canada or in the greater Toronto area where I reside. But the work cannot reside and should not reside with those folks. There's also been a lot of burnout on those teams because they're expected to do everything, but they shouldn't approach the work as you know we're going to do it. No, we're going to bring in people, cuz a lot of people are interested in the work, particularly people from equity deserving groups and wanting to contribute. So again it's creating that space and opportunity for people to do that. 

So I've read a lot as sort of consultant coach just interested in this area, obviously this is not my area of expertise, but I've read things about how DEI um can lead to better performance whether you look at that financially or whether you look at that as you know teams uh working better together, they coordinate better they gel together better. But I've also read how just doing DEI as in you know checking the box, making sure you have the diverse team, you have representatives of women and you know different um underrepresented groups on your team, that alone will not necessarily deliver those improvements. So I think this is where sometimes people don't understand what DEI right means. So can you sort of talk to sort of the bridge between those just doing it and actually making it go far enough that you see some benefit?

Definitely. So yeah increasing that diverse representation that's the D in DEI, right? So ensuring that, as you said Sandra, that folks from underrepresented communities are reflected in your teams. Sometimes people just do that frontline. So your frontline team may be very diverse, like we see this like in healthcare and hospitals for example um their nursing staff, their healthcare staff may be very diverse. But when you start moving up into leadership positions, that diversity drops significantly. So looking at diversity in leadership, management, executive positions, as well um looking at who gets promoted and why. Also looking, we mentioned it earlier, about retention. So who stays in the organization, but also importantly who leaves and why. So again we start at that diversity, that representation. But we can take that a little bit deeper to really understand the full story of equity within the organization.

So doing DEI well really means, not just you know remaining at the surface of the work, but going in deeper. So again, we looked at you know hiring and retention, who gets hired, who gets promoted, who stays and why. So looking at your data from your exit interviews for people who leave, understanding why. Was there instance of inequity or discrimination? You find that a lot. People leave because they don't feel welcome, they don't feel safe or they experience discrimination that no one addressed. Sometimes they won't say anything until that exit interview. That sometimes is the only time that as an organization you get that feedback. So looking at that feedback that you get and there's lots of feedback that organizations get these days. Then decide what you're going to do with it. How someone is saying that they didn't feel welcomed and safe in their team or in the workplace? How is the workplace going to address that? That's important feedback.

So maybe it is starting a mentorship program right? What is your onboarding process? Do you in that 90 days match up an employee with a some a senior person in the organization to help them kind of navigate? I know when I've started in some organizations it's taken me six months to feel like I understand what I'm supposed to be doing here. Getting people lined up with someone when they can ask questions and feel comfortable and start feeling connected will really help that retention and then productivity. So once you the better you understand your role then the better you'll be able to perform your role. So that's one area, one example of where you know doing DEI well. Some other things might be setting up employee resource groups. So larger organizations sometimes will set up um committees for employees from equity deserving communities where they can come together, talk about issues, plan activities, plan events. Again it's just another way for people to feel that they're welcome, that they belong within the workplace. Employee resource groups have been around in the US for a longer time than here in Canada. They're more recent. But again, they can be spaces where, not only do people feel connected and that they belong, but some of that mentorship can happen, and, more importantly, sponsorship. So if there is a an employee in a group who's working with maybe a senior manager or executive on this committee, you might be able to say, you know, oh, you know, there's an opportunity coming up. Michelle has been sitting on this committee. You know, I'm getting to know Michelle a lot better. I would love to see her apply to this opportunity that's coming up. So you then, you know you're getting to know your team or maybe you're working for people from other teams. Because, again, sometimes we only know people in our department or our team in these employee resource groups, you may be working with people that you haven't had a chance to work with before, and you're getting to see their strengths and their capabilities. So you know, that's another area where diversity, equity and inclusion can really create those pathways for people, you know, to be promoted to advance to leadership. There's other things that workplaces can do around DEI. Supplier diversity is another one. Who do you do business with as an organization? Is it diverse? I was at an event last week for women business owners, and the data shows that only 7.5% of corporate contracts are won by businesses led by folks from equity, deserving communities. So whether it's people with disabilities, folks who are 2SLGBTQI+, plus racialized folks, newcomer indigenous peoples. 7.5%, that's way too low. So again, thinking about that as part of and we often don't talk about that supplier diversity as part of Diversity Equity and Inclusion. But again, really important when we're a little bit further along from the you know, maybe you started the training, maybe looking at the hiring metrics, as you mentioned, Sandra. But there's so many different pathways after that to continue to advance on your DEI journey and really see that growth that is transformative, and that will, then, you know, lead to increased productivity, increased profitability, increased reputation and leadership in the area.

Amazing. So the things you're talking about sound to me like they encourage career path in a way that's fair and recognizes, you know, people who really are ambitious and who are really delivering and growing and giving them opportunity that is aligned with that. How does it also encourage allyship? Or how can you also encourage allyship?

Beautiful question. Allyship is so critical. It is so important to this work, and sometimes maybe people don't see how they can be allies to the work. But that's needed. So allyship ensures that persons who are not from equity deserving or equity seeking communities understand their roles in advancing equity for others. So sometimes it is and often it is about, you know, using your own power to help others. So one that could start with education and training. In the session last night, someone said, you know, I had to go and understand what my privilege is as a white woman, she said, you know, for a number of years, she traveled within the global South, and she didn't understand how privileged she was in those spaces. And so she's taken the time to educate and to learn what that means. And another gentleman says, you know, most of my friends would say, you know, we're not privileged like we've been fired, we've lost jobs. So helping people to understand that, you know, even though you've had maybe similar experiences, things may have been a little bit easier for you, because maybe you're born in this country and you speak the language, and you're from the majority group, and so there have been some opportunities that you've been able to realize without even thinking about them. That you've been able to tap into persons who are not from those communities or don't have those identities. So then, how do you then use that privilege, or how do you use the opportunities that you've been afforded to help others? So it might be if you see something that is discriminatory, speaking out about it. So you know, often when I was in workplaces, I would question and challenge some of the behaviors of bullying and harassment that I either was experiencing or that I would see, but I was often disappointed that my colleagues didn't also speak up and speak out against it. So then, you know, I was quickly seen as the, you know, the difficult employee, or the, you know, yeah, difficult or contentious employee when, as opposed to if I had two or three of my colleagues also saying, you know, that wasn't okay what was said or what was done, it would have taken a huge burden off of me. It takes a lot of energy to always be the one speaking of and questioning and challenging. It would also validate my experiences, because sometimes, you know, you're thinking, Oh, was that a sexist comment? You start questioning yourself, right? Am I making this up? Was that racist? You know, that comment didn't quite sit well with me, but maybe I'm being too sensitive. We often minimize things, right? However, if a colleague, comes and says, Yeah, I think that wasn't okay. I didn't like that, that would again, go a long way in helping me to, you know, helping people to feel safer and comfortable, being able to do it. Then people that are using their positions of power or privilege, even when you don't see that you're in a position of power or privilege, to really share the burden. Achieving Diversity Equity and Inclusion is everyone's responsibility, so allies are important in sharing that responsibility, sharing that burden, because really, we can’t advance this work, on this journey without the role of important allies.

Yeah, okay, so I'm going to tie together a couple of the points that you brought up. And you know, I'm thinking about my own experiences as you're talking Michelle, and I've had a couple of these encounters that were very upsetting, and sometimes I minimized it, just like you're talking about, well, I don't know, you know, should I really be this upset, but I'm feeling upset. I remember, in one case, and this reminds me of the exit interview that you're talking about, I had a candid conversation with, you know, somebody, a leadership person at a company, about something that I was upset about, where I felt I was being discriminated, you know, for my religion. And the interesting thing is that the leadership didn't realize this was happening at their company, and they were upset on my behalf, and then I saw changes happen as a result. And it never occurred to me that the leadership didn't know this was happening, and I was not minimized, which surprised me. It was like, Oh, you're taking this seriously. So I'm wondering, just to bring it back to the idea of the exit interviews, I'm just wondering, if you ever see situations where people will talk about, this was my experience, you know, I was discriminated or harassed or not encouraged. It could be very subtle. Could be, you know, I didn't get the same kind of fair encouragement to grow, and the leadership doesn't even realize this is happening at the company. Do you ever see anything like that?

I definitely, I think that happens, but like, the bigger the company gets, I think the more often that occurs where leadership, of course, sets the tone for the organization. They set the expectations, etc. So the leadership may, you know, say that they are equitable and inclusive, but sometimes, you know, mid management level, that message gets lost. So I do think that there can be that gap where the executives are not aware of what's happening. They're saying this. They're expecting this. However, the you know, supervisors and managers are you know, being bullies, a lot of instances, and harassing their workers, but it's left unchecked. I had an experience where a situation come up. I spoke with my manager’s, manager, and, you know, became like my take away from it, the conversation was that we're kind of just waiting for this person to retire, right? And it's just like, but then you know, as an employee, you'd have to, you're needing employees to suffer until this person decides to retire. So I do think there are instances where leadership doesn't know. But there's also instances where leadership maybe does know, but they still don't do anything. So I'm glad, in your example, you shared Sandra that leadership took what you said seriously, and they responded quickly, and you know, you felt so supported. That is doing DEI, well. What I'm saying is sometimes we see DEI, you know, they just don't do anything, right? And that's not okay, because again, people are then suffering, and then will not come forward and say anything. Because, okay, Mike said something, once, nothing happened. I won't bother. Then, as someone said, you know, good people leave Michelle, good people leave this organization. And I guess it's because people get frustrated too.

To me this brings us to the idea of the missed opportunities. And, you know, I just want to flip the DEI equation upside down a little bit. And instead of looking at the leadership level, look at the lower rungs of the org chart. And, you know, just talk a little bit about how people maybe don't understand the power that they really have. And you know, my impression as a coach and consultant is that often and I speak about managing up. So to me, this relates to that concept where instead of thinking about you're a manager, you manage your team. If you have a supervisor, you also have a role, if you take it to manage your supervisor. And so, you know, what do they call it, the tail wagging the dog, leading the dog. I got that wrong. So I just, I just want to ask you a little bit about your thoughts, you know, with potentially employees who don't see themselves as having power, maybe not realizing how much power they really do have, if they chose to take it, whatever that means, to speak up, to start, you know, a new system. I like practices where people will have a regular way of airing out uncomfortable things, in making them comfortable, whatever it looks like, a way to practice conflict or just to suggest some kind of new initiative to your supervisor and be the champion of that. Do you have any ideas on this question. Michelle? 

Absolutely, I think, yeah, that's a wonderful way to look at it in terms of, yeah, managing up or even managing, like, kind of sideways. So the influence that you know, non management staff has on your peers, right? So how can you influence people's actions and behaviors and thoughts. You can often do that in a peer to peer. So you know you're going out for coffee or you're having lunch together. You know it's maybe an opportunity to say, oh, you know, we had that workshop yesterday or this morning. What do we think about that? I find it really interesting that the person said, X, have you ever thought about that, and you're having these informal but usually really important conversations where people feel comfortable with each other, to, you know, say what's on their mind, what's in their heart. Maybe sometimes in those conversations, when you're hearing, you know this happened to me? You know, the other department I used to work at, or the other organization I used to work at, again, people are feeling comfortable. So I think there's that opportunity, peer to peer, to do this work and to have those conversations. I think also a lot of time, you know, as you're saying, starting new initiatives or maybe joining committees where you can do things that are fun, that that are, you know, important to you, issues and topics that are important to you, and also that grows your skill sets. Maybe you're good at planning or organizing, so joining a committee where you're planning and organizing events to, you know, celebrate different cultures, or to have these, you know, these talent conversations on whatever topics. So I think there's also those opportunities for frontline staff, or non management staff, to kind of step out of your job, role and responsibilities, to do other things that are aligned with your values, aligned with your interests, that doesn't require that hierarchy and that reporting structure. I know, for me, I did that a lot in the last role that I had where I was, you know, chairing a committee with senior executives who were, you know, chairing the committee and meeting people from across the organization who I wouldn't have met otherwise, and outside volunteers. So it was a really fabulous opportunity on that committee that, again, didn't have the structure and allowed me to use my strengths to do a number of different things that really helped to really push forward the conversation. And then I think, the managing up, I'm pretty big on that, like you managing the person that’s supervising and working with you, particularly if they don't have the skill sets of good of a great manager, the manager, oh, what should I do? And I'm like, I'm not telling you what to do. That's your job. That's not my job. And they kept asking me, like they seemed really stuck and really struggling. I was like, Oh, wow, this is, this is almost heartbreaking, that as a leader, that you don't know what to do, and then you're coming to staff. So eventually I said, Well, you should do this, this and this. But to me, it was like, You should know that. And this person didn't like to go to trainings, didn't like leadership development opportunities. And so it showed and it showed up in the, you know, in those moments. So I think, it's also really important for organizations. And I spoke to someone in HR, or the person who, yeah, did some work in HR, like, how are you taking into account Diversity, Equity and Inclusion when you're hiring people and putting people into leadership positions? She said, Oh, you know, that's a really great question. And yes, we are. I have to, because I'm hiring people who will run the organization into the future, so ensuring that people have a good understanding of it. But I think what happens in a lot of instances is that people know, sometimes know the language, so they can talk about it in their interviews. But I don't know if everyone always had the tactical, practical capabilities to really do the work. So I think that's a thing that organizations need to be looking at. You know, when you are promoting folks, do they have the capacities and capabilities to do DEI and to do it well. So now that they know the language and the words, all of us can Google like we can all we can all chat GBT, we can figure out what to say. Do they know how to do the work? I think is kind of the next level of leadership within organizations.

So we covered a lot of ground, Michelle in this conversation, I'm just going to ask you one more, one more question. So for anyone watching this, if they feel passionate, they feel called to, you know, making improvements at their firm, and maybe they're not in leadership, or maybe they are, but the firm has never done anything beyond, you know, the basic requirements, but they're hesitant. So let's say somebody is passionate about doing this, but they're hesitant. Well, I love how before you talked about just sometimes it's the small steps. What would be a good first step, just the first small step. What would you recommend?

So a really good first small, initial step might be to for that person to figure out who else shares this interest and shares his passion. Start talking with people, maybe putting together a little group, you know, maybe you know, we're going to start this DEI committee, for lack of a better term. I'm sure you know you can get a better name, but we're just going to start once a week, or once every two weeks, at lunchtime or whenever, just getting together and just talking about it. What are some of the concerns folks have? What would you like to see in the organization?

How can we get going on this?

How can we get moving and then maybe having a few of those conversations, maybe inviting someone from management to come in, maybe a union rep, if you're a unionized workplace, and just start with informal conversations, kind of figuring out where you want to go next. And I think it's good to find out again, who else is interested. So again, you're not doing the work by yourself, and you're not feeling burdened by the work. Burnout is really real in this in this space. So ensuring that you have some support and that you're connected, I think would be a great first step. That's a small step, that's not overwhelming, right?

It is a small step. And I love how it brought it back to the idea of allyship. And you know, everything that we talked about today, I feel would be not only helpful towards the DEI cause, but also towards the individual who plays a role in this effort to grow themselves as a leader. You know, you're talking more, you're building more connections, you're inviting mentorship, or you're being a mentor, whatever it is, you're building your own community and your network. And there's all kinds of good that comes from this.

Absolutely, I really like how you were able to see Sandra that, yeah, this person is going to develop their skills, right? And different, as you mentioned, in so many different ways. So, yes, yeah, great opportunity to do. So, okay, so we promised everyone we would talk about the benefits of DEI, and we did.

That's right, that's right. We did.

Wonderful. Thank you, Michelle, for your time and your insights. I enjoyed our conversation.

I did as well. Sandra, thank you. You asked really great questions, and I too enjoyed our conversation today.

So everyone listening out there ask questions, right? Yeah, exactly. You don't need to know everything. Okay? And to our listeners, if you're interested in learning more about Michelle Davis, please go to MVD consulting.ca, you've been listening to Get in the driver's seat, stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host. Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. Take care everybody.