Selling without being salesy! Guest: Mark Hunter

Today, we’re talking about how to - and I know you don’t like this word - sell without being salesy as a lawyer or other type of professional. What do we mean by that? Profile building, initial consults, referrals and introductions. 

This conversation explores various stages of the sales process in legal and other professional services, including:

• How professionals can self-promote with ease, without coming across as bragging. 
•  How to get comfortable asking for business from a prospective client. 
•  How to ask for introductions and referrals from your network, without detracting from nurturing the relationship. 
•  How to set initial consultations up for success, for yourself and your team. 
•  How to close a sale. 

In this episode, we share stories and ideas from our own experiences of supporting lawyers and other professionals through this process and how that has evolved over the years. 

Some aspect of selling is going to be part of your job for the remainder of your professional career. Getting comfortable with this can be a game-changer! 

Mark Hunter is an award-winning marketing, brand, and communications executive. Mark has designed internal and external programs that drive adoption and deliver exceptional client experiences. His expertise spans B2B and B2C environments, with particular strength in helping legal professionals translate complex services into compelling messages that resonate with their audiences. 

If you are interested in learning more about Mark Hunter, please go to: glenmaplegroup.ca. 

You're listening to Get in the Driver’s Seat! We’re telling stories about leadership moments in small to mid-sized professional practices. I’m your host, Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach for lawyers, architects, consultants and other professionals at Bekhor Management.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Get in the driver's seat. We're telling stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor Practice management coach at Bekhor Management. So today we're talking about how to, and get ready, because I know you don't like this word, how to sell without being salesy as a lawyer or other type of professional. And what do we mean by that… profile building initial consults, referrals and introductions. Joining me for this episode is Mark Hunter, an award winning marketing, branding and communications executive. Mark has designed internal and external programs that drive adoption and deliver exceptional client experiences. His expertise spans B to B and B to C environments with particular strength in helping legal professionals translate complex services into compelling messages that resonate with their audiences.

Welcome, Mark. 

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Thanks, so Mark and I met last November. You remember when we were both panelists at an action packed program organized by LAWPRO and Toronto Lawyers Association, ‘What they didn't teach you at law school’, that was the program name. And this is definitely one of those topics, and it's something that I think is even more challenging today in either a remote or hybrid environment. And I remember being impressed with how you Mark, how you were comfortable just naturally talking about yourself. You didn't sound braggy, and you didn't hold back either, like you talked about yourself appropriately at that program. So that's when the idea sparked for this podcast. So let's start there. That for me, is the beginning of this conversation. How can professionals self promote with ease without coming across as bragging? So Mark, what comes to mind for you when, when I say that?

A lot of it comes down to understanding who you are and who you're speaking with at the time. If you think of some of the biggest lawyers that are out there today, you know some of the top litigators out there, they're known by reputation, so they didn't have to brag for themselves. They have other people bragging for them. When you're at your early stage your career, you don't have that action, you don't have that capability, because you just haven't had the experiences yet. The ability to talk about yourself is also about keeping your ego to the side, right? It's not about Look at me. I'm so great. I've done all these wonderful things. It can be about promoting other people. Can be promoting things that you've talked about, things you've done, but not in a way that's like, I did this, I did this, I did this. Maybe it's a we maybe it's a how things came about. Maybe it's about, you know, moving from we were, we had an issue, worked with a bunch of people, we came to the resolution, you might have been the one who did all of that work, but by bringing in other people into the picture, it becomes a little less braggy about, yeah, I did. To the person hearing it is like, Oh, you actually led all that program. And it's like, you can kind of show your sense without actually saying it outright.

That's nice. I've heard people talking about what they do and in terms of connection to how it impacts the client. So it's like, instead of talking about, oh, you know, we do personal injury law, we actually sit by our client's side while they go through something really, really difficult, maybe the most difficult thing they've ever gone through in their whole life. And we become part of their family as they go through it, and they never forget it, like that. That's compelling. And it's not salesy. 

Absolutely.

It's just being a person, right? Being human to other people. And obviously you're taking that to the level of like the personal energy, where it could be a devastating situation. But what if you're a corporate lawyer? You know, that's not devastating to the other side, but the other person has pressures on them as well, right? The general counsel, the CEO, might be on the board of directors, might be on them. How is this going on? When’s this transaction happening? So you have to put yourself in their shoes as well and help them be as successful as they can be. You know, someone told me this years and years and years ago, and it was specifically about us just sending a communication out, but it actually is words to live by, and it's if you think about it as what's in it. For me, when somebody is actually hearing what you're saying, you might actually change the way you're saying that information out to them, because you need to give it to them in a way that make that resonates with them and that they can actually use the information in a meaningful way.

Yeah, I find that the professionals who do this with ease are the ones who are able to check their agenda at the door.

Yeah, absolutely. Because, again, it's not about their ego, it's about making a resolution for the client.

Yeah, yeah, and thank you for bringing up the corporate lawyers, because this conversation is about both the B to B and B to C. For the listeners who aren't familiar with that terminology, it's business to business, business to consumer. So you know, selling to corporate setting is very different from like family law, where you're dealing with …

Absolutely your audience is completely different. They're a different level of sophistication, of what they can understand. If you're going through a family dispute, you're really worried about your spouse, your parents, your children, your finances. It's very, very personal where, on the corporate side, it's personal in a different way, right? It's about their career. It's about what they're doing, about the people they work with, but you're also dealing with somebody who understands the law, potentially, right. If you're dealing with the General Counsel, if you're a corporate lawyer, dealing with another corporate lawyer, you can share things in a different way. Now, that said, if you're a litigation lawyer and you're dealing with a corporate lawyer, you might still have to change how you're communicating because you're talking about an area of the law they don't understand as well.

And I love how you also brought up the feeling of compassion for that client, regardless of whether they're going through a hard time or this is about their career and that that is something they care about.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know it doesn't matter what type of lawyer you are, what you're doing, but it's about understanding what the other person is going through as well to make sure that you're able to get your point across.

Yeah, amazing. Okay, so, so that's a good start.

So we can extend that even a little bit more. Remember working with some personal injury lawyers, and one of the things they talked about was they didn't talk to their clients for a year, year and a half, as things just kind of progressed. And if you suffered a personal injury, you're like, why is my lawyer not calling me every week? Why aren't they giving me updates on things? And the lawyers like, well, I don't have to. There's nothing to say, but they don't understand they need that component. When you're dealing with the corporate side of things, it's a little easier, because you can say, When do you want to hear something from me? How often should I be talking to you? Because they have an agenda of their own and know what their pieces are. So again, going back to understanding the audience, it makes the difference,

Yeah, yeah. And sales isn't just knowing how to promote yourself or you know how to close a deal. Sales is also about these processes, like it's actually really important to get that right.

Yeah, yeah. Again, and this would be on both sides of the business, but you have to be reactive when somebody does contact you, right? If you're a personal injury lawyer, for example, or an estate lawyer, and you use an online tool to have people initiate a connection with you, what's your process to get back in touch with them? You know they're not expecting you to wait a week, 10 days before you respond to them. They want you to respond quickly. Similarly, if you're corporate lawyer and you get a phone call, you better respond to that phone call. Right? That could be a referral coming in. It could be a new client that's coming in. Don't let that sit. Don't let that wait. You know, there's a period of time that people have an expectation they're going to hear from you or they'll go somewhere else.

Yeah, and I've seen clients that their strength in sales. They don't use the word sales. I know what they're doing, but they don't call it sales. But their strength is, is a speedy response. And like literally boom, boom. You email me. I get right back to you, and if I don't have time to talk to you, that's okay. I can say that the next two days I'm in back to back meetings. Do you have time on Wednesday?

Yeah, and that's when you're into a file more and you're left managing expectations, right? So if you're going to be in court all day, do you use your out of office assistant to say, I'm in court all day? I can't get back to you at this point in time. Or, you know you're out doing something else, you get an email. I can't do this right now, but I'll get back to you in a couple days, like it's about managing those expectations. And you're right that it is salesy, but you're not actually being a salesperson. You're just maintaining that client engagement.

Correct. 

And good sales professionals will tell you that's what sales is.

You know, this is, this is kind of an aside, but I was ordering a pizza the other day, and I was on their online tool. And then, of course, you put in the order, and it says we've received your order. And then you could actually watch the profile: we're making your order, your pizza is almost ready for pickup. Like it gave you all those little bits along the way. Is it necessary? No, kind of funny though, that it's doing that and it's managing my expectations to know, yes, my pizza is going to be ready to pick up in 15/20, minutes. Even, yeah, they told me that. Now I can actually watch the process go launch.

That's interesting. And you get that sometimes with parcel deliveries, I think Amazon has changed people's expectations of how well they're going to be serviced.

That's right, yeah. So how do you take that into the into the legal environment? Right? That's about, again, managing those expectations of your client, whether that's using your out of office, letting them know when you'll get back to them. If you have an online tool that's bringing in potential clients, what is the response? Say, once they've hit submit, I'll get back to you within 24 hours/ 48 hours, whatever that is, you better maintain that promise that you're creating for yourself.

I find one of the other things that builds trust is telling them what you won't do, like right up front, you know, oh, you can expect this from me, but if you're expecting this, you've called the wrong place. This is not us.

That's right. And we used to joke, I've worked in with professionals in different capacities. And one of the things I noticed about lawyers... For example, you know, an engineer would tell you, I can build you this bridge, but I can't design the road that will take you to the bridge. I need to get you a road engineer to do that, a lawyer will say. And I mean, this is obviously a bit facetious, but sure, I can do your M and A deal, and I can also do your estate planning, and I can also do your personal injury claim. It's the I can do everything mentality. And obviously, once you get into larger firms, they're not going to have that. But if you're a sole practitioner, a small shop, maybe you are saying that. But to your point, if you've never done that personal injury case, don't tell people you can do it, right? Send it to somebody else, right?

And this is part of the how you talk about yourself. How do you talk about yourself? Isn't just what do you do, it's also the and I don't do and I know people, and I'm happy to refer you, and let's, you know, let's just talk about what you really need.

Yeah, where I can help you. Don't call an electrician when you have a plumbing problem, right? Like, it's the same idea.

Okay, so the next step that I wanted to talk about is, how do you get comfortable asking for the business from a prospective client? Yeah?

I mean, like, that's a problem across all spaces, right? And it doesn't, even if you're buying a car, for example, right? It doesn't matter what it is. You need to get to that finish line as a business development or salesperson, and it's hard. It's not a space that we're typically good at.

And the challenge is, what's that? Where is that point to say, I'm going to make the sale now? In corporate, if you're doing RFPs, it can be a bit easier. Here's the timeline, right? Especially if you have a client where it's every two or three years, you're just getting back on the roster. RFP shows up. You fill it out. It's got a bunch of dates in it. You know, if you're going to get the work or not get the work. But taking your question is, I met somebody at a convention or a conference. We talked for a bit. They’re a potential client. I've sent them some material. How do I find out again? How do I get to that next point of actually signing them up? The point is you have to have a solution for them, and they have to be ready to sign that deal with you. So if you've started the process of understanding what their needs are, you've explained how you can do that, then getting them to sign on the dotted line is a bit easier, but it's about that upfront work before they're going to do it. Learning about them, taking that extra time to understand their business, their environment, you know, whatever that means. It could be reading up about them. It could be asking them a lot of questions, could be visiting their, you know, visiting their business. I've seen clients doing really interesting things like mirroring the business of their clients, of their key accounts. So if the if the client grows and they add, you know, a location, then you know, like, my client will actually add a location to mirror that, or add a service, or hire someone to deal with a very specific thing. It's like such a deep partnership, but it is sales, because it's impossible to say no to that.

That's right, yeah. It's, I mean, if you can get that ingrained with a firm or with a company, that's fantastic. You can do that. But then, then you're maintaining a relationship. You're not actually asking for new business. Then right. 

You're right

Unless, of course, you know you might be doing their corporate work, and you want their litigation work, then you are asking. But that's at least broadening the relationship, rather than starting from scratch and starting from new. I think we also know in legal, you know that that sales cycle, that business development cycle, it can be really long. You know, you can be working on somebody for years before you get anything out of them. On the consumer side, less. So, you know if you have an injury, you have an estate issue, then you're in a small town. If you're the only lawyer in town, it's a quick sale. Someone picks up the phone says, I have an estate issue. You're like, Okay, let's do this. Now, you haven't had to build a long relationship with that individual, but you've had to build in the community so that they know your name recognition, so that they know to call you, so that there's the whole brand component that's been going on in the background, that's not a direct sales perspective, and that sort of creates the readiness for conversation to happen. 

And you know what comes to mind? For me, it's just a funny situation with my dentist. He'll always ask me, he's like, oh, you know, I see this... You're gonna need this gum surgery. And he knows I don't want to do that. And so his sales pitch is always like, well, you know, down the road, if you don't do this, you know what's going to happen two years from now, you're going to end up with this much more expensive, much bigger surgery that's going to hurt, and it's going to need a much more... I'm like, okay, all right, I'll book it.

Book it. Yeah, exactly.

You're absolutely right about how that works. And you know, we wanted to take the dentist story a little further. You can be overly touchy with clients or prospective clients as well. I had gone to a dentist as my dentist retired. I needed a new one, so I went to this place. I didn't have a great experience with them, but the number of emails and texts I've got from them over the following months drove me crazy to the point that I had to say, you're not going to be my dentist. This is not happening. Please stop. I don't need weekly reminders of getting things done. It was the wrong pitch for them to do for me. So understanding your audience and what works for them, it's difficult, but it is something you need to do. It's not just one for everybody, right? Which is what they were working through, yeah.

And I actually think that's an important point Mark, that number of touch points, you know, the frequency of that touch point, because it can get irritating and annoying if it's too much. The right frequency is, I don't know it's like art, you have to know how to hit that right tone for your audience, because there's no magic number. It's exactly what you just said. There is no magic number, no.

And it kind of goes back to what we said earlier, like, what's in it? For me, it's like, I have to know the person I'm trying to do some work with that they need a weekly up, a weekly push to say, how are things going? Is it a monthly? Is it a quarterly? How often should I be following up with them? And that's understanding the challenge that they're facing at the time to try and actually keep that sales cycle going.

Okay, so let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the other side of sales, which is your network. So asking for introductions, referrals, and not feeling like you're jeopardizing your relationships by asking for these things. Do you have any stories that that you know, that you've witnessed or been part of, that relate to this?

A few things come to mind, and you know, one is, you need to have a broad network. But you also want to make sure your network is a solid one, and so you want to make sure the people that you're referring work out to and number one, ideally, they can refer work back into you. Obviously, we all want to do that. But number two, they're going to do well by your client or the person you're talking to. You know, I work with a number of different event planners, for example, honestly, you want to make sure the one you work with is going to put on an outstanding event for that client, because then you look good, they look good. The client looks good. Everybody looks good. If you provide them with just a random name or somebody you met once, it's not so helpful. Now, actually, building that referral network takes time and effort. One thing I speak about a lot is, if you're going to a conference, for example, who are the two or three or five people you want to meet? Don't try to meet all 800 people. Do some digging about who's going to be there. Do some digging about the individuals that you think you can add. You know, if we're talking about referrals, specifically, who matches well with the work you're doing. And then start to engage with them and find out if you gel, right? Like if you and I gel, then you and my client will probably gel. If you and I don't gel, there's a chance that's not going to work over the other way either, right? So it's about building that network of people that are like minded in the way that they deal with their clients, like minded in the way that they'll come through for each other. And hopefully, like I said, you can push work back and forth between and there's an element of patience that's necessary to do that. 

Well, yeah.

And in some cases, there might not be work that you can send back to the individuals, right? And that that can happen too, especially in legal right? You You're there's certain things that just might never come back to you, but you also have to know who you can refer that work to. So, you know, for, for example, is a family lawyer going to refer a big M and a deal to, you know, one of the, let's say, a small one off lawyer referring a giant M and a file to one of the big firms. That's they're probably pretty happy about that, but how often will that come back? The other way? Are they going to have any small files that'll work? And vice versa? So you have to understand who it is you're sending work out to and be strategic while cultivating a network that aligns with your with your business, with your future and also with your values.

Yeah, because then it really does just work better. It's going to be easier to do this absolutely, yeah. And, you know what I found interesting? Over the years, I have coached a lot of very successful entrepreneurs. So, you know, professional services, the owners, and they're hesitant to ask for referrals from their clients, or they're hesitant to ask for an introduction and often we'll have a conversation where I'm like, Well, you know, how do you feel about telling them where you're at in your business? And you know this thing that you're now actively growing, these steps that you've taken to build this next step, because to me, it's very exciting what you're doing and the thing is that it's very easy to underestimate how much other people want to help you.

Yeah, or even just saying nice things about you. If you're into the PI space, you'll see Google reviews is a huge thing for them, right? Because it's all about people searching online for personal injury. Immigration is another great example of this. You know, they want to have those Google reviews that are over 1000 over 2000 whatever that number is, to make sure that they start climbing better. If you're a giant corporate firm, you're not going to ask a client for a Google review to make sure that you show up in Google. But you might ask them for a chamber submission. You might ask them for a quote in that area. And that's a way of getting a referral. Without actually specifically asking for a referral, you're getting a vote of confidence from these individuals saying, Yeah, this was a great lawyer. This was a great lawyer. This was a great experience. This is something that I think will could be good for other people. Once you've done that level, you can actually ask them for other things as well. Now it's give and take, right? Like, what is it you're providing for them? I don't think you can just, well, you can, but it would be awful to just go up to somebody and say, can you just tell all your clients what a great lawyer I am? Like, that's not going to work, right? But you can provide them with different professionals that they might need, and then they can provide you with potential work. Yes, it's about being a good Samaritan, a good human like sharing what works for you and then they'll share, like you said, they want to help you as much as you want to. 

Yeah.

And often the giving is the way to start. So giving and receiving kind of go together. And if you start with the giving, they naturally respond by wanting to give back to you. You don't even have to ask, often. And one of the other things I'm remembering that's interesting is, you know, to make this conversation easier, is when, when I go through this marketing planning exercise, and ask a client to think about the 80/20 rule. So the 80/20 rule is one of my favourite go to’s, and I'm sure you know Mark, but I'll explain for the audience. It's like, okay, if 80% of your revenue is driven by 20% of your clients, well, then if you want to understand how to build your business in a way that is easier, maybe more fulfilling, more profitable, then you really drill down to, well, who is that 20% of my clients that drove 80% of my revenue, really understand them, and then call them and say, Guess what marketing exercise I just did, and I learned that you are my ideal client, here's why, and because of that, do you know anybody that is like you? Because I want to work with much more people like you, and that's a way to ask for a referral, yeah?

And it also helps you understand your target market and who it is you want to work with, right? Because then all of your marketing efforts can be actually aligned to that. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. The 80/20 rule is a great one, the one part of it that, depending on the type of practice you're running that can be interesting, is how those clients came to be. Were they cold calls that came in? Was it referral from somebody else? Was it a networking exercise you did? Was it through online searches? Understanding how that came in can actually be enticing for you as well.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You can go so deep with that, and be careful to not dismiss the root. So if you say, Oh well, they came from, you know, okay, a referral. Well, what? How did you meet that person? And you know, what if it came from LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is doing great for me, okay, but you know, how did that happen? Because there might have been a step before that.

Yeah, and if it was a referral, how did you thank the person? Yeah, right, whether you got the business or not, you should still be making the effort to be to reach out to the individual and acknowledge your thanks for what they've done for you.

Yeah, that's nice. Okay, so then the next step I've got here is, how do we set up that initial consultation for success. You don't want to waste the opportunity for success, for yourself and for your team. So it may not be you going to the meeting. You can still set up, you know, the process. Okay.

Well, let's start with what we used to do in the legal profession. A lawyer would say, I've got a meeting with a client, put together a package for me about how great I am, how great the firm is, and all the various practices we have, and because I need something to leave behind once I go to that meeting. And that's what we used to do, and it wasn't very effective, but it was what we would do. Now there's a lot more work you're doing in advance. I would almost say it's 90% of your work you've done in advance, and then 5% in the meeting, and 5% after. So prior to the meeting, maybe you've created that package of what you think is going to work so that you have something prepped, but it's not finalized. You haven't sent anything to them. You've researched what that business is about. You've researched the individual. You have some understanding of the case that they want to talk about. You've done, if you can, a deep dive, fantastic, if you can't, at least understand the high level and understand where you add value to that case, so you can share that experience with them. If you have like minded cases, you're going to be putting that in your package of other things you're going to have. And then the number one thing when you go to that meeting is listen, not about talking, not saying how great you are. It's about listening to the problem, understanding who the client is, understanding what their needs are. Once you've done that, you can go back, finish off that package that you really want to send them because they are going to need. Most people want something tangible once they've met but you can now have a customized piece of content that's going back to the individual. You know, there's no point in telling them about your tax group or your labour group if they have no need to understand that you have those practices. Talk about the things that matter to them and make it feel like that's something that they want.

Yeah, you're speaking my language Mark. I'm such a big believer in ask questions and listen and then talk about yourself, because then you'll know what to say, what they need to hear. And I have a little story. Client came to me before she was going into a business presentation with a big group. So this was an initial consultation, but it was to a group rather than to one person, so it felt like a little more pressure. And so it was kind of last minute. She's like, this is what I've got. What do you think? And the first thing I said to her was, flip it, start with the end. She's like, No, but they don't know me. I can't do that. I'm like, start with the end, and start with, this is what you've told me your problem is, here's what I understand. And start with sharing examples of other clients where you've actually helped them with that exact problem, and then talk about yourself. And she was like, yeah, that meeting went really well.

That's great. And quite honestly, if you're lucky enough to get the in person meeting person, the person you're meeting with has already got enough about you from that phone call, zoom, meeting, in person, whatever it is that they don't need the 30 page bio to say how great you are for these things, right? A couple paragraphs, because potentially, they need to show somebody else to say, here's who I talked to. This is their qualifications, and this is what mattered.

Okay, so let's do one more question. So do you have any tips or examples about closing the sale?

Well, I think everything we've talked about is about it's getting to the point of closing the sale. The actual asking for the work in this business is less of an ask. So if you think about buying a car, you've done some research online, you've gone to a dealership, you've done a test drive, then the person's like, so do you want to make an offer? You're ready to make an offer? You ready to close this? We don't do that right? Our process is we've talked about the issue that the person is dealing with. We've talked about how we can resolve or work with them to get through that issue. We've talked about costs. At some point, you probably brought up like, this is what the fees are going to be like. And then, like, there's usually a deadline of some sort. So then it's like, we understand that we have to get this figured out by next week. You know, if you want us to get started, let me know. It's almost, a very soft sell at that point, because you've already done all that preliminary work. It's not, like I said that you're buying a car, and it's, do you want to make an offer on that, whatever vehicle it might be. 

I think the deadline is an important part of closing the sale, and the deadline is sometimes driven by the client, but sometimes driven by you, right? Because if you're like, Well, I'm a busy lawyer, or I'm a busy architect, and if you want me, I really need to know by tomorrow, because I've got a few other projects, I have to commit my team and my schedule so that that can be part of it. The other part could be that somebody's hesitating because of fees. Maybe you really do click and they really want to work with you, but they're hesitant and so I think sometimes negotiation tactics are helpful here, like just having a conversation about what really matters to you, you know, and just maybe we can refine the scope or change something so that we can make this work, or just start with the first step, and then, you know, see what happens from there, as opposed to, oh, well, either you take it or leave it, kind of thing.

That's right, yeah, and that's part of the discussion points, right? Understanding what, how much money they have to deal with this, or where the value gets to a point that is not worth dealing with it, right? It mean, there is that point too. If there's a lawsuit that you can potentially generate X number of dollars, but it's going to cost you. Why do it? Is it worthwhile making the effort anymore? And that's a discussion you're having with them as you're going through the process. And, you know, understanding that is different. The idea of haggling, is one that comes up. That reminds me of a story. My wife and I were in Morocco, and she saw this scarf that she loved, and it was beautiful. And when you did the conversion back to Canadian dollars, it really wasn't very much money. And she's like, I'll take it. And the person who was selling it to us is like, No, you can't have it for that price. And obviously we were tourists. And she says, What do you mean? Says, No, here you haggle. So if I say it's $100 you say, No, that's too much. I'm willing to pay 20. And he said, and then we'll go back and forth and you'll get a price that's fair. And we were just like, we were already happy with the price. It was so different than what we're used to. When you walk into a store here, you know, you can't walk into the grocery store and say, You know what? That apple costs too much, and I want to get it for half the price. But it was a different way of doing things. But you're absolutely right when it comes to fees, there often is something you can do to make that work in the favour of everybody,

Yeah, and sometimes the client that's hesitating about fees, sometimes just needs a reminder about what the cost of not doing this work will be, and that could be in the corporate setting, where you know, okay, well, if you keep going the way you're going, you're going to potentially face these errors, or you're going to potentially miss something, and what's that going to cost? They might need that reminder.

And, you know, on our side of things, sort of as the legal team, you know, there's ways that you can push files down, right? I mean, isn't that the point of every partner is to push the file down to make more profit out of these things? So there's often ways we can make things work, if it's a file they really want to have. And I think that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You don't want every file, right? You want ones that align with the work business that you're building, or the work that you're trying to put out. Yeah.

And, I mean, there are other lawyers who are doing creative business arrangements where they're just, you know, offering consultations while someone works with another lawyer because their fee is really high and, you know, and those arrangements still offer value. Absolutely, yeah. So there are ways. There are ways to close, okay, and anything else that you want to say, Mark before, before we close today?

I think we kind of touched on it earlier. But I think when it comes to business development, for lawyer, the hardest part for them to get their head around is the patience part. It does take time when you're trying to build your profile, while you're trying to build your business, while you're building your book, it's not typically something that you instantly have.

No. You'll also find there's a lot of lawyers who put their single out and are so busy right away they miss out on all these other things. And forget that they actually have to put some effort into their business development to make sure that that pipeline stays thick and heavy, right? So you got to be putting in the time, even when you have no time.

Yeah, yeah. And also Yeah, exactly, to remember that even when you are busy, that you still need to keep adding, adding to this process so that when it becomes leaner times, you'll benefit from that work that you did. Yeah, that's a good reminder. Okay, wonderful. Thank you, Mark for your time and your insights. This was fun.

I really enjoyed this. Thank you.

And to our listeners. If you are interested in learning more about Mark Hunter, please go to glenmaplegroup.ca. You've been listening to Get in the driver's seat, stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. Take care everybody.